Alskdfj

just karon

• 7:45 Karon (they/she) can someone give me a summary
• 7:47 Karon (they/she) same Marcus, just really confused
• 7:47 Karon (they/she) i heard clp was a poc group but i thought omni was pretty white? seems weird
• 7:48 Karon (they/she) yeah i want to hear their side?
• 7:51 Karon (they/she) interesting, what did they lie about it?
• 7:54 Karon (they/she) totally agree with you joshua, its really weird that this is about a bipoc led group :/
• 7:54 Karon (they/she) but would like to hear more about accountability from all
• 7:55 Karon (they/she) yardena, im curious: how was CLP fascist? :o that is news to me
• 7:56 Karon (they/she) what does vanguard mean?
• 7:57 Karon (they/she) thanks Joshua!
• 7:57 Karon (they/she) Jacqi, i agree that this sounds pretty reactionary...
• 7:59 Karon (they/she) wait why are we talking about Iran? i thought we were talking about omni stuff
• 8:00 Karon (they/she) patrik could you speak on that? they have beef with dsa?
• 8:04 Karon (they/she) yes i saw on twitter that dsa voted to disband the bds palestinan solidarity??? let me go fin it
• 8:06 Karon (they/she) yes i agree w aidan, i still really want to hear clp's side because im not hearing anything from them right now...as a volunteer at omni i do want to hear all sides
• 8:10 Karon (they/she) yardena why didn't you remove him tonight?
• 8:15 Karon (they/she) and peoples programs cant really defend themselves right now...
• 8:16 Karon (they/she) so it makes me pretty sad because theyre really dope and do SUCH good work for oakland and the Black community here
• 8:17 Karon (they/she) someone said that peoples programs was a front for clp because they use the same language...?
• 8:17 Karon (they/she) which is so strange because i think peoples programs works separately
• 8:19 Karon (they/she) oh ok thanks for the clarification
• 8:20 Karon (they/she) i think peoples programs would be great at omni cause of their good work
• 8:23 Karon (they/she) i want to hear about that
• 8:28 Karon (they/she) jake did you say racist things though?
• 8:29 Karon (they/she) or has jake done racist things? more often than not, racism is done through actions...if racist things were said or were done, i'd really like to see a written statement for accountability's sake
• 8:31 Karon (they/she) isnt it rude to interrupt in general? not just if someone is Black or not?
• 8:34 Karon (they/she) same thoughts as jacqi...its a weird thing to say jake??
• 8:35 Karon (they/she) it's making me pretty upset here
• 8:37 Karon (they/she) why were you arguing with people? is this how all meetings are in omni?
• 8:42 Karon (they/she) wait so jake sent someone to talk to clp assuming they were white?
• 8:42 Karon (they/she) can we all see that email?
• 8:43 Karon (they/she) ive seen multiple times that keep misgendering rafiq, thats really offensive since it seems like yall have known rafiq for a long time
• 8:44 Karon (they/she) its not that hard to be honest...like joshua said, its the bare minimum
• 8:45 Karon (they/she) as someone thats nonbinary, i really really care about this. just basic respect
• 8:45 Karon (they/she) it doesnt feel safe in Omni if you cant just do this. use the correct pronouns
• 8:47 Karon (they/she) honestly the way Jake was speaking to Joshua made me really uncomfortable
• 8:52 Karon P sorry i disconnected
• 8:53 Karon P who asked for my email?
• 8:53 Karon P Yar what are your pronouns?
• 8:55 Karon P but Jacqi, thanks for speaking on that earlier. that was great.
• 8:59 Karon P yes please add me

whole meeting

• 7:08 Jake Marcus Zamani of Sudoroom asked me for the link earlier today
• 7:09 Yardena Cohen https://pad.riseup.net/p/omni-special-tmp
• 7:10 Yardena Cohen we are using this riseup pad https://pad.riseup.net/p/omni-special-tmp
• 7:14 Yardena Cohen https://pad.riseup.net/p/omni-special-tmp
• 7:29 Joshua Hubbard can someone let aidan from fnb in?
• 7:30 Joshua Hubbard i think CLP is in the wiating room
• 7:31 Paige P for those who just joined: https://pad.riseup.net/p/omni-special-tmp
• 7:31 Aidan Hill Hello: Aidan Hill: EBFNB - Currently at Disaster Response training. Accessibility needs: Text me if you need me.
• 7:33 Sarah hello apologies for running late, have any decisions been made?
• i don't see it, can someone please share again?
• 7:33 Paige P https://pad.riseup.net/p/omni-special-tmp
• 7:34 Sarah is it legal to not invite and bar their delegates?
• are we opening ourselves up to legal challenges/issues?
• 7:35 Yardena Cohen meeting notes now public https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Event:2023/09/28_Delegates
• 7:35 Jake we checked with our lawyer and followed their advice
• 7:35 Sarah expect a big public call out and a boycott
• i don't see how we survive this
• terrible idea
• 7:36 Aidan Hill I've already offered mediation.
• 7:36 Jake which Sarah is that?
• 7:37 Aidan Hill They/them pronouns plz tho ty
• 7:37 Sarah but you did act against people of color
• did we give CLP a legally defensible chance?
• 7:38 Joshua Hubbard were they given a forum to provide their case?
• 7:38 Yardena Cohen we acted against a small group of people of color, in solidarity with other people of color
• 7:38 Sarah I don't think we did, this is legally a bad idea
• really bad
• Sarah Lockhart
• mic not working
• 7:39 Jacqi Galea I agree I don’t think this is good either. I do not feel we have them a chance to present a case
• 7:39 Aidan Hill Removals are last resort tactics fyi. Definitely not anarchist principled.
• 7:39 Yardena Cohen sadly, this was a last resort situation
• 7:40 Aidan Hill ^ I don't think so. I didn't know about the situation. Others could help too. Delegates are suppose to take this back to their groups. Idk I don't think EBFNB voted
• 7:40 Jacqi Galea Who are the trolls?
• 7:40 Yardena Cohen the person impersonating sarah lockhart i think was a troll
• 7:40 Jacqi Galea Who was impersonating Sarah and when was that confirmed
• 7:41 Paige P Hi Jacqi it was based off an email I read from Sarah L contradicting the comments
• I will forward you it in email
• 7:42 Aidan Hill FYI: https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Safer_Space_Policy#3._Safer_Space_Code_of_Conduct
• Plus like.. what happened to "Nothing about us without us."
• 7:44 Jake Aidan can you clarify what your point is?
• 7:45 Jacqi Galea I agree with Aiden.
• Do folks feel the email to clp is truly sufficient? I don’t think so considering all major decisions are usually presented at delegates meetings, as I said in the beginning this all does not feel right and I do think they were given ample opportunity to make a case. And I think they could make one for why this wasn’t a process protected by our bylaws
• 7:45 Aidan Hill Why are you talking about people who can't defend/respond? Its technically bandwagon fallacy / bullying. They've already claimed Omni is racist. This doesn't challenge that notion.
• 7:45 Karon (they/she) can someone give me a summary
• yes
• 7:46 Aidan Hill Plus if you want this to be a :"after delegate meeting" it should be open to the public. If yall wanna spend your time yelling at eachother do that. Don't talk about groups without groups present. Its unfair, it changes peoples ideas into biases. Its a form of bullying.
• 7:47 Marcus Zamani i'm fascinated that it happened so quickly. i'm not familiar with things moving so fast
• 7:47 Yardena Cohen this meeting is open now, there is nobody waiting in the queue
• 7:47 Karon (they/she) same Marcus, just really confused
• 7:47 Aidan Hill Can someone let CLP know then?
• 7:47 Marcus Zamani what happens if TANQ still doesn't come?
• 7:47 Jacqi Galea I did let them know
• 7:47 Karon (they/she) i heard clp was a poc group but i thought omni was pretty white? seems weird
• 7:47 Aidan Hill Ty Jacqi!
• 7:48 Karon (they/she) yeah i want to hear their side?
• 7:48 Jake here's CLPs position
• https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2023-September/004014.html
• 7:49 Aidan Hill What I'd like is for each group to send out a statement what they've done to support Omni within the last 6 months.
• I think if each group shows their material contributions we can assess it accordingly. I also need to see Sudo's meeting minutes when they voted to ban CLP and other groups perspectives.
• 7:51 Karon (they/she) interesting, what did they lie about it?
• 7:51 Aidan Hill What did they do, specifically? Personal opinions are inconsequential. I don't like democrats, doesn't mean I vote them out of groups.
• 7:52 Jake Aidan, CLP has been directly targeting people immediately after those people expressed criticism of them, so you should try to understand why these measures are appropriate
• 7:52 Yardena Cohen aidan, did you read my email from tuesday?
• 7:52 Aidan Hill Looking right now.
• 7:53 Yardena Cohen https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2023-September/004077.html
• if what comes from this is a major accountability process about race at omni, i think that would be a wonderful outcome
• 7:54 Karon (they/she) totally agree with you joshua, its really weird that this is about a bipoc led group :/
• 7:54 Yardena Cohen now that CLP is removed i am hugely relieved and i hope any remaining momentum is channeled into a serious reckoning about anti racism at omni.
• 7:54 Karon (they/she) but would like to hear more about accountability from all
• 7:55 Marcus Zamani i'll talk later...
• 7:55 Yardena Cohen seriously you have no idea what a weight is off my shoulders knowing that CLP cannot use omni for their fascist provocateur behavior anymore
• 7:55 Marcus Zamani go ahead
• 7:55 Jake Marcus on my machine i have to check the sound settings, it randomly sets the microphone to something else
• 7:55 Karon (they/she) yardena, im curious: how was CLP fascist? :o that is news to me
• 7:56 Jacqi Galea I don’t wholly disagree with the grevances ppl have with CLP. I was named in their email too and as uncomfortable as that can be it doesn’t negate the fact that as a collective space we should move with integrity and respect processes that are already in place. It’s deeply concerning that people who were accused of racism by a biopic led group are now immediately voting to remove people. It feels reactionary and Ill motivated. And can we not with the name calling them fascists
• 7:56 Marcus Zamani thx
• 7:56 Karon (they/she) what does vanguard mean?
• wait did they really? can you verify that yar that's pretty weird
• 7:57 Joshua Hubbard wiki "Vanguardism, in the context of Leninist revolutionary struggle, relates to a strategy whereby the most class-conscious and politically "advanced" sections of the proletariat or working class, described as the revolutionary vanguard, form organizations to advance the objectives of communism. They take actions to draw larger sections of the working class toward revolutionary politics and to serve as manifestations of proletarian political power opposed to the bourgeoisie. "
• reductionist, but that's the jist
• 7:57 Karon (they/she) thanks Joshua!
• 7:57 Patrik D'haeseleer CLP leadership has some very public posts glorifying the Islamic Republic of Iran, Stalin, Mao. When they say that they want to "revolutionize" Omni, I think we should believe what they say...
• 7:57 Karon (they/she) Jacqi, i agree that this sounds pretty reactionary...
• 7:58 Aidan Hill Thank you @Yardena: Yes I remember seeing it in a RE: So basically the issue is about TANC?
• This is the only bannable offense from what I understand of this letter:
• They stalked [redacted]'s housing, used private info given in confidence at bogss
• interviews, combed through 7 years of social media looking for dirt.
• The reverse racisms are not allowed. Its white fragility. However if individuals harassed others, there should be accountability. Is the person in the email interested in mediation
• 7:58 Jacqi Galea Again, not saying that CLP is in the right, but was what was happening so urgent that we couldn’t give them 10 mins to speak?
• 7:59 Karon (they/she) wait why are we talking about Iran? i thought we were talking about omni stuff
• 7:59 Jake https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/consensus/2023-September/004092.html
• 7:59 Patrik D'haeseleer Their beef with DSA seems to be primarily that DSA is counter-revolutionary, that is, they are willing to work from within the system
• 8:00 Karon (they/she) patrik could you speak on that? they have beef with dsa?
• 8:00 Aidan Hill I also sense Tone Policing here.
• 8:01 Yardena Cohen the other thing i forgot to mention is my takaway from last week's delegate meeting which i'd be happy to elaborate on
• 8:03 Yardena Cohen aidan, i would be happy to talk to you more about your concerns about tone policing
• 8:04 Aidan Hill Bring it to all collectives. Let them chime in. Reelect delegates. Idk but "self-crit or ban" is toxic and I always believe those who want to ban others instead of working through things should be the ones banned themselves.
• 8:04 Karon (they/she) yes i saw on twitter that dsa voted to disband the bds palestinan solidarity??? let me go fin it
• 8:05 Joshua Hubbard found this? https://www.eastbaydsa.org/events/2998/2023-07-16-ride-for-palestine/
• i mean it's not the biggest showing of support ever but it's something...
• 8:05 Aidan Hill @Yardena, cool I was gonna ask: .... | I gotta do exercises for medical stuff. If folks could just send me testimony I can compile and find commonalities / alternative resources / basic summaries of what happened. BRB yall.
• 8:05 Yardena Cohen aidan, if you'd be interested in talking one on one i would like that also. i don't think we've formally met ........
• 8:06 Karon (they/she) yes i agree w aidan, i still really want to hear clp's side because im not hearing anything from them right now...as a volunteer at omni i do want to hear all sides
• 8:06 Marcus Zamani ok this is a new comp i'm on.
• so i'll type it out. but i feel like the speed to vote them out was kind of fear based around losing TANQ as a potential member collective, given their withdrawl.
• but what happens if they still don't want to come in after all this?
• 8:06 Yardena Cohen is ... your email address?
• 8:06 Paige P sorry forgot about the stack
• 8:08 Joshua Hubbard i don't want to keep derailing the conversation, but i am personally upset that there has been "accountability" for CLP but not for other folks - specifically Jake
• 8:08 Jacqi Galea Gotta go everyone I hope we can continue conversations around accountability. Especially considering clp wasn’t in this meeting but Jake was allowed to be here and vote
• 8:09 Paige P jake didnt vote
• I was SR delegate
• 8:09 Jacqi Galea Gotcha but he was allowed to give his opinion and be on the meeting yeah?
• And clp was not
• 8:09 Paige P yes that is true
• I support the other parts of your comment
• 8:10 Patrik D'haeseleer FYI - I don't thnk Jake spoke during the delegates meeting. But yes, he was present
• 8:10 Yardena Cohen josh and jacqi, those are valid criticisms about jake. i admit i was also fearful that jake would derail, but i didn't remove him. maybe i should have.
• 8:10 Karon (they/she) yardena why didn't you remove him tonight?
• just curious
• 8:10 Yardena Cohen i was certainly ready to if he was going to derail
• 8:10 Jacqi Galea Even though everyone agrees that Jake has been racist and problematic, I’m genuinely not trying to be combative, I really am just trying to understand what the priorities are for us here. Do we care about a safe accountable space or do we care about comfort. I appreciate everyone taking the time to discuss all of this stuff, I don’t mean to drop bombs and run I’ll stay on a couple more minutes for any responses but then I have to run
• 8:11 Jake Jacqi are you talking about when I asked the BOGSS delegate "are you a CLP member?"
• 8:11 Yardena Cohen i guess i was mostly just focused on what i saw as the task at hand, which was to formally remove CLP, and i was afraid of starting any potential fights which might have derailed that goal
• 8:15 Karon (they/she) and peoples programs cant really defend themselves right now...
• 8:15 Jacqi Galea Sry my internet dropped but responding to Jake I was referring to times people have named your behavior and comments as racist, problematic, or just plain passive agressive and rude. But on a very basic level it just doesn’t make sense that people they are directly accusing of wrong doing are immediately giving opinions on or voting for removal.
• 8:16 Karon (they/she) so it makes me pretty sad because theyre really dope and do SUCH good work for oakland and the Black community here
• 8:16 Jacqi Galea Obviously it’s not that simple but I’m having trouble getting past that.
• Yeah what’s the problem with peoples programs?
• 8:17 Karon (they/she) someone said that peoples programs was a front for clp because they use the same language...?
• 8:17 Jacqi Galea Sry but what? Lol
• 8:17 Karon (they/she) which is so strange because i think peoples programs works separately
• 8:18 Jake Jacqi I didn't have a vote tonight, I am not delegate. That said, I think you're just repeating people have said that Jake did behaivor or comments that are racist etc., and I have been looking closely at the notes and chat logs to find the specific things they are referring to
• 8:19 Karon (they/she) oh ok thanks for the clarification
• 8:19 Jacqi Galea Yeah thanks for that clarification
• 8:20 Karon (they/she) i think peoples programs would be great at omni cause of their good work
• 8:20 Jake So far, the clearest example I know of was when Danielle (who i have NEVER seen) said she was BOGSS delegate, and I (perhaps inappropriately) interjected "Are you a CLP member" which I think was a valid question. Rafiq immediately framed it as "jake has no respect for black women clearly"
• 8:22 Paige P reminder, they/them pronouns for Rafiq
• 8:22 Jake that's in addition to Rafiq accusing me of saying all kinds of things I never said, and Yar echoing with things like "Jake went on a racist rant" and I'm legitimately asking anyone who can, to remind me what specific things I said were racist
• 8:22 Yardena Cohen sorry if i misgendered rafiq
• 8:22 Jake SORRY I MISGENDERED RAFIQ I AM TRYING
• 8:23 Karon (they/she) i want to hear about that
• 8:24 Jake Rafiq said "it's islamophobic to call me the leader of CLP"
• 8:25 Patrik D'haeseleer Sorry for misgendering Rafiq as well. Guess my old brain is still remembering the delegates meeting where he identified both as he/him and they/them. I will try to do my best to use people's current pronoun preferences though...
• 8:27 Jacqi Galea It seems like were working off of a lot of assumption?
• 8:28 Karon (they/she) jake did you say racist things though?
• 8:29 Yardena Cohen the things he said were racist in context i think, but not directly. it was mostly dismissive of peoples' concerns about antiracism, which is a kind of racist
• 8:29 Karon (they/she) or has jake done racist things? more often than not, racism is done through actions...if racist things were said or were done, i'd really like to see a written statement for accountability's sake
• 8:31 Karon (they/she) isnt it rude to interrupt in general? not just if someone is Black or not?
• 8:32 Jacqi Galea ^Yeah it’s absolutely rude in general, and if someone is representing Bogss you know they are a woman or bipoc so this isn’t an excuse either way
• 8:34 Jake Karon people get interrupted at meetings all the time, and in this situation the interruption was a point of order, asking someone if they were a member of another group
• 8:34 Karon (they/she) same thoughts as jacqi...its a weird thing to say jake??
• :/
• like, as someone who's asian, i hear these kinds of things from people claiming theyre anti racist
• but at the end of the day, we're all human who shouldn't be interrupted
• 8:35 Yardena Cohen this is why it feels racist i think - because it's implicitly expressing resentment against identity politics. i understand it's a tough needle to thread in this context because i do believe that CLP specifically wields idpoc in bad faith. but it's an issue that goes beyond CLP
• 8:35 Karon (they/she) it's making me pretty upset here
• 8:37 Karon (they/she) why were you arguing with people? is this how all meetings are in omni?
• i hate yelling and it makes me scared
• 8:39 Jake the reason I was arguing with people was because we were facing a vanguardist takeover by a leader/group that creates conflict as a means of grabbing power
• 8:39 Aidan Hill tbh i'm here cause yall (as a whole) are gonna come for me next lol. I'm unapologetically black and fervently against white superiority in all forms.
• 8:40 Jake I was targeted by Rafiq since 2022 because I was the first person at Omni to question them
• 8:40 Jacqi Galea It’s exactly why this isn’t a “safe space”
• 8:42 Aidan Hill FYI Rafiq is nonbinary and uses they/them pronouns. Continued use of incorrect pronouns is against omni's safer space policy and ban-worthy.
• 8:42 Karon (they/she) wait so jake sent someone to talk to clp assuming they were white?
• 8:42 Yardena Cohen jake wrote an email assuming it. didn't investigate
• 8:42 Karon (they/she) can we all see that email?
• 8:42 Yardena Cohen the email didn't explicitly assume, but "i assumed you were white" was his defense in the thread
• 8:43 Patrik D'haeseleer Rafiq clearly was trolling Jake at the last delegates meeting. And Jake was too much of a hothead to refuse to take the bait. I'm glad Sudo decided to remove him as delegate, because he lacks the diplomacy skills to de-escale.
• 8:43 Karon (they/she) ive seen multiple times that keep misgendering rafiq, thats really offensive since it seems like yall have known rafiq for a long time
• 8:44 Yardena Cohen this was the thread in which jake assumed CLP were white https://omnicommons.org/pipermail/discuss/2022-April/007196.html
• 8:44 Karon (they/she) its not that hard to be honest...like joshua said, its the bare minimum
• 8:45 Aidan Hill Also if people were misgendering Rafiq, I can understand why the dysphoria could trigger and cause acting out. Its really hurtful and makes people re-experience trauma when it happens. I get misgendered constantly and it SUCKS
• 8:45 Karon (they/she) as someone thats nonbinary, i really really care about this. just basic respect
• agreed Aidan
• 8:45 Yardena Cohen as a trans woman i am so glad that other people are complaining about this omg
• 8:45 Karon (they/she) it doesnt feel safe in Omni if you cant just do this. use the correct pronouns
• 8:45 Yardena Cohen it's been just me for like 10 years
• 8:47 Karon (they/she) honestly the way Jake was speaking to Joshua made me really uncomfortable
• Joshua was trying to help and deescalate but it just escalated anyways
• i can understand you Jacqi
• 8:47 Yardena Cohen incidentally karon do you mind sharing your contact info? i think you're the only one here i don't have contact for. i am ..@....com if you want to do it that way
• 8:48 Jake I have still never seen Rafiq, and they used to be he/they pronouns, and I am trying my best to remember their pronouns
• 8:48 Aidan Hill Thank you all for being open and discussing. I'll put some notes together. Feel free to email me: ......@........
• If you're in crisis, please call 988 and talk to a professional support advocate. You matter. <3
• 8:50 Yardena Cohen your intitial reaction also can be kept safe behind a filter. you can sit with the feelings you know are wrong to act on
• 8:50 Jacqi Galea Thanks for being here Aidan
• 8:52 Karon P sorry i disconnected
• 8:53 Jacqi Galea No worries thanks Karon for being here
• 8:53 Karon P who asked for my email?
• 8:53 Yardena Cohen i did
• 8:53 Karon P Yar what are your pronouns?
• 8:55 Karon P but Jacqi, thanks for speaking on that earlier. that was great.
• 8:59 Karon P yes please add me